Who Are Kink Collective in NYC?

By: Abby DivDate: Sept. 22, 2021

In Le Sex Lab's podcast we are talking about NYC's kinky scene and making media in the city that never sleeps. In the lab to chat about shooting sessions, People Before Kink, and new documentary series are Co-Founders of Kink Collective, Joshua and Cat.

Abigail Div
Hello, everyone. We're going to be talking today about NYC's kinky scene and making media in the city that never sleeps. I'm your host, Abigail dib, founder of the sex lab and experimental Media Lab exploring sexuality. In today's interview, we'll explore the following who are the predominant counselor that make up to members slash founders of collective? What does people before kink mean parties picking up? How does kink collective imagery stand out? And lastly, how does the maximum and background contribute to a new documentary series documenting individual's journey through kink with me today to talk about their work as founders of kin collective event organizers, media makers are cat and Joshua. Welcome Cat and Joshua.

Joshua
Hi, thank you so much for having us.

Cat Orme
Thank you.

Abigail Div
Oh, it's my absolute pleasure. And welcome to the sex labs podcast. Now, as founders of kin collective, you both come with a history of work in the kink and fetish community. Specifically in New York City, you've been involved in many facets of education and the nightlife scene. Joshua, you come with 10 years of experience as a pro-Dom, and Cat, you're an event organizer, and counselor, and are also studying non-denominational ministry. What are the origins though, of Kink Collective? How did it come to be?

Cat Orme
Joshua, and I, put our forces together, probably three and a half years ago. He came from a background that had his his ideas were incorporated under certain umbrella. And then that went away. So we sat together and looked at what were we doing? What did we believe in? What were we trying to teach people? And how do we want to organize? And so the phrase King collective came up, because we are sort of a collective of King stirs. We're now leather family. And that was the phrase that that came up to sort of capture what it was we were about and becoming.

Abigail Div
Yeah. Now in terms of the the origin story of King Collective, it's now three years old. And you have a physical space based in New York City, specifically in Harlem, what happens there?

Joshua
So in our spaces where we develop, and we create, we do media production in our space. And I do processions and by processions I mean professional domination. Sometimes we capture the sessions, depending on if the client is looking to develop their own catalogue of imagery through their own experiences, which either myself or cat capture. And we brainstorm a lot, right? We're trying to figure out how our organization is going to evolve.

Abigail Div
So it's an experimental space, where it's multifunctional, multimedia, of course, as well. So let's get into it then and talk more about the more recent projects that you're involved with. You provide a range of services, as you were saying, and experiences, both in your physical space, in hosted spaces, and you also travel. So let's break down what you've done, what you're doing and what you plan on doing in the future, as there's a lot of that pre post and current sit scenarios that we're running, what services do you provide, you do in person experiences? Correct?

Joshua
Correct. So what we'll do is we'll start from the top down. And I'll start in with myself individually, and then I'll turn it over to cat and then we'll talk about how it all comes together. So I do professional domination. And I've been doing it for a number of years. The process. And the connection that I've been able to establish with my clients is nothing short of beautiful when you're capturing it through media, right when I see it, it's beautiful. So my desire to capture it started many years ago, where I would ask the clients if I can photograph during the session, because I want people to see the beauty and the intimacy in these engagements that are beyond the aesthetics of the way a person looks, but more of the way a person responds emotionally. Right, so we're trying to capture the essence of what connection is now that has progressed from photography to a documentary series that we were creating called people before King. And the idea behind the documentary series is to allow the viewer to connect with what it is they're seeing. By by really breaking down what happens in these sessions down to the emotional level and what it is we're looking to connect with the person we're engaging. The modality of video allows the viewer to really grasp what the person is experiencing, in turn allowing them to be in those shoes for that hour and a half that the initial episode is it's very powerful and it's very impactful and to normalize the lifestyle and to make it accessible to the Those who have only the ability to think about it is one of our target goals. cat has intern found her photography bug on a whim like, and it was really incredible. You want to share that story?

Cat Orme
Sure, I, if you look at my phone, if you look at my I know nothing about photography, nor have I had an interest in it. But we've been involved with this family and as we've said for a while, and so I was watching Joshua with one of our family members. They were engaged in a very small scene. But as I said, I saw it as like, Wow, this looks like a picture. And I got a camera tossed to me on a tripod. And I started taking pictures. And then one thing led to the next and then there was more leather involved in position and get the next thing was a full blown photoshoot on my first one ever completely done seat of the pants. And from what everyone has reported to me, the pictures came out great. And I loved it. And that's been about six or seven months ago. And I've done a few shoots since then. And it turns out I have an app for it. And, and I know what I'm looking for. I mean, I've been in the lifestyle for a while I've been watching scenes and watching people play for a long time. And I do have a particular view like I I see people through their faces. And so there's expressions that get made when people engage so deeply at this level that I like to capture and show people.

Joshua
That's what makes our production different. I and I will even say more authentic, is that we understand the process that the person is experiencing. So what we're catching our visual cues of expression, right, because we understand it because we've walked it ourselves. So with what LMB productions is under under the king collective Banham is a media group that wants to tell stories, right, we want to collaborate with people who are interested in expressing themselves. And using our lens of experience, to help tell their stories, whether it's a video, whether it's photography, whether it's stories, we have authors in our in our family, that are putting out books within the next couple of months, I'm super excited for them. But we want we want to be able to make accessible media,

Abigail Div
An interesting and intriguing challenge as a lot of kink and fetish work tends to be in wrapped in the community of people who are doing it. And making it accessible to a larger audience than those who are immediately involved or in the lifestyle of doing it can feel as you were saying someone inaccessible. So making it accessible to them is an interesting, challenging proposition that you both have taken on. Speaking of the community, there's a representation in New York of every niche that you can imagine, but who are you trying to cater to.

Joshua
So with our philosophy, people before King, the idea is we want to create events where we are who we are before, we are what we are, meaning a level of equality where people of all levels of experience, orientations, gender race, can come into the space with the understanding that we are all curious. And we want to find community that accepts us as we are, right? Because when I first started coming out to events years ago, I identify as pansexual, right. And if you look at me, I'm very fair skinned. I'm a Latina, who grew up in New York City. And New York has essentially three subcultures. You have the pansexual community, you have the gay community, and you have the queer community, the lesbian community can fall under the queer community faster than it was fall under the gay community when it comes to Association through event spaces. With that being said, I never fell into one category neatly, right? I'm too straight for the gays. I'm too gay for the streets. And I'm too sis for the queer community. upfront. And this was my experience years ago, it really affected me deeply. And it hasn't allowed me to, to address it on a community level yet. What it did inspired me to do was to create and host my own events. And the idea behind that was to find and create a space where people can be accepted as they are, regardless of the markers that society places on when I met Kat, who was hosting her own events in her own space, the philosophy that we both share of equality and connection resume. So it was almost like destiny, destiny for us to meet and to grow and to build as we have with the growth and the expansion of people before kink and the king collective creating space for those who are seeking a better understanding yourself.

Abigail Div
That's the perfect segue into the People Before Kink as a maxim that underlies much of your works. Where did the the phraseology come from? Was it from my personal experience a story and evolution?

Cat Orme
it came up the same way that King Collective came out. We spent a lot of time sitting and talking, we, you know, as he said, my space was already existing, I was already doing events. And without that language, that is the way that I ran all my events, right, that we both had this same philosophy of that, who we are is way more important than what we do, or, you know, you run into a lot of these events, and people are like, Hey, what are you into? And, you know, we both came from this feeling that, that that's not the most important thing, like, you know, what kink you're into? Or what you know, what do you want done? Do you is not nearly as important as Who are you? You know, how did you get to be here, who am I sharing that together. And so the more we talked about it, but the shorthand people before kink kind of came up. And it was kitschy, even to us. And so we were like, let's run with it.

Joshua
The the experiences that we both have, though, over time, is what created that formula understanding that, again, we are who we are, instead of what we are, really changes the energy of the space to if people cannot feel objectified, or commoditize. And there there's people, right, they're not just another person to pay up the door. But we make it a habit to meet each person that comes through the door, right, so that they have a familiar face, and so that it can feel familiar, right? Because community in mind, for me, there has to be a connection within those around you, even if it's just knowing each other's name. Right. But that makes a huge difference than just paying to get into an event and just being present. Right not knowing anyone around you. It doesn't allow us to drop our walls, and to be a little more comfortable within our own skin. Because if we can be comfortable in our skin, we can really change the way we communicate and connect with others.

Abigail Div
Yeah, and certainly having the ability to connect with literally millions of people doesn't make it an easy challenge to overcome in terms of creating personal space and personalized experiences in a city that is, is known habitually to have turnover and rotation and depersonalization Of course of experiences, because you're in the masses of people, and capturing also certain raw, unadulterated reactions, during the sessions that you're creating, comes with a level of trust and comfort that you have to build, it doesn't come inherent. And just by the fact that you have a common interest, it also makes it more conducive also for both working and playing with one another. How do you approach capturing sessions as you're saying, you do them in your space and cat and Joshua, you're both photographers in your own right and have your own aesthetics also in mind.

Joshua
So we have the same approach to everything, believe it or not, is very fundamental. Talk to me, tell me about right, if we want to, if I want to photograph someone, I want to understand who they are, who is it that I'm capturing in front of the costumes will always change. They'll always wear one outfit or another for the it'll be headshots for portraits, or fetish photography, or, or videography. But the important part is the essence of the person that we're capturing. Right? So sit down and talk to us. Tell us about you. And then we share stories. And we make ourselves human as well, not the professional photographer, but Joshua with a camera. Right. And if and if you can be yourself relaxed in front of me with a camera, we're really going to capture your essence. And the same goes for caption fits that we talk. And we create a space where it's okay to be yourself.

Cat Orme
For me, it's really extra easy because he's such a larger than life character to want to be around that when he's doing a session and I'm doing photography. I had one person actually tell me, you mean she was here at the end of the session, and he wasn't even aware of the fact that I'd been in the room taking pictures the whole time. So that works easy for me. Yeah.

Abigail Div
That sounds like the ultimate objective not to know that the photographer is there.

Joshua
It's fantastic. It's like they get so what's the agreements and the, with the agreements prior to shooting, knowing that she's going to be there. My objective is to keep them present with me. She is going to witness our experience. Her role is to capture the energy behind it. When he said I didn't even know she was taking pictures. That was such a win for both of us. Because she was at Lego goosebumps. She was able to navigate the entire space without the person even being remembering that she was there. So his expressions weren't huge his his responses were very natural. The end product is erotism. It's intimacy. It's sexy, it's rough, it's raw. And it's real.

Abigail Div
I think that's the ultimate objective. And you've done a beautiful job of not making it as, as some fashion or editorial photography would be overtly beautifying it right, you're just capturing what you see in front of you. Not posed not staged. It's as authentic as you were saying, as the person's response to it can possibly, but take me back into actually how you set up shoot storing your session.

Joshua
So I have an intake process that requires us to put in at least three to four hours of chatting, or getting journal. So this really knocks down a lot of a wall. So I can get an understanding where you're at and where are you trying to go. When the client arrives in the space, we spend about another 1520 minutes checking in and humanizing each other, like people before came, I want to know how you're doing. What's up, how was your week? How are you feeling today? What energy Do you have, and we really break down our experiences, our emotions, our feelings present, so that I have an idea of how we're going to navigate this. We set up minimal lighting, maybe one or two strobes, and one camera. This is just for photo shoots, and cats part of that conversation. Externally, she talks about, or I would talk about depending if I was taking pictures, what the process is going to be dropping a few cues, I may say Hold it right there. And the communication goes between the photographer and the dominant, submissive, we try our best to not engage them in this process so that they're not taken out of the headspace. But these are with visual cues, waiting to get the dominance attention, you know, hand gestures so that we can slow it down or change position. So that we can get the best angle possible of what the submissive expressing. The photographer doesn't engage with the submissive almost at all, depending on on the agreement and on the depth that they're willing to go. Like, we had a photo shoot here two weeks ago, that was with five people. And lasted about seven hours. And throughout that process, I've spoken with them and saying, in the middle of things I may reach in, I may move hair out of the way, I may make an adjustment without the intent of disturbing this, right, but really just trying to step in and step out and continue with what this process is. It's It's like we're trying to like be ninjas at the same time, right? It's really cool.

Cat Orme
One of the things that I like to do when I'm the photographer, and he's the one running the session is I start taking pictures before they even start. They are test pictures, but they're just for a sense of like normalizing the idea that what we're going to do today just involves me like floating around the outside, snapping like, so that it's not a thing.

Abigail Div
Right, that sounds like there's a certain given take in terms of participation versus observation. In any given photoshoot Cata, do you find yourself on a more participatory element to this or more an observational way of viewing the scene.

Cat Orme
Part of what's happened for me as I fell literally headfirst into this thing about photography is right from the beginning and very caught up in what it is I'm trying to capture, right? Sometimes I get to when the scene is like really hot, really intense, really whatever I can be like, I can come out of the photographer mode for a second and more into the observer mode. But I don't ever participate in the session, because I'm not trying, I'm trying to the best that I can not to impact in any way, you know, kind of like that very light footprint sort of thing so that the session really is between him and the person he's working with. And I don't have any sort of a there's a scientific term I want to use for this, but I can't get it's come to mind. But the idea that the observed is not influenced by the observer. Right. So my presence is not in any way affecting what's happening, that that what's happening is what would be happening. And that's the great thing from the standpoint of the from the viewer would be they're getting to see what this would be like, without anyone else being there. It really is like a half yard, whatever. The right at the line view of what's happening in a way that you wouldn't ordinarily get to see it.

Abigail Div
Yeah, it certainly looks like that from the imagery that you are an observer into a scene in capturing a moment as opposed to seeing something voyeuristic or exhibitionist way of being either interactive with the person who is observing you, or vice versa of the other person observing you without the interaction of the person who is doing the act, so to speak. And that's a difficult balance to hit, where, as you were saying, if they don't know that you're shooting them that I think you've done more than your job, in terms of capturing a moment, as they're not aware of your presence. Well, in terms of your imagery, which you can see on flyers for upcoming events that you're hosting in New York City, how would you distinguish your imagery from others? How does it distinctive or different from other kink or BDSM, scenes or captures,

Joshua
I like to think of them as art. And the whole word artist, right? That's like, that's one of my like, really,

Cat Orme
when I when I met him, he would smack you as soon as you call him an artist.

Joshua
But, but there's a beauty in the energy exchange between whoever's in that image, that that makes it hard. Right, that makes it something you can feel. Right. So it's not just a picture of pretty people dressed up in pretty close. But sometimes there's pain, sometimes there's anguish, sometimes there's love, you can read a mix of emotions, regardless of the intensity, regardless of what the image is, there's a feeling in it that you cannot, you can't deny. Right. So I like to, I've learned to like using the word art.

Cat Orme
I was thinking earlier, as we were at the beginning of this conversation about, you know, one of the things that we do, you know, as event promoters, and as, not counselors, for lack of a better word is engaging with people who are new, engaging with people who have never actually stepped foot out, you know, they've thought about a baby, you know, dreamed about it, they've been fearful of it, but they finally come around a lot of our events, especially now, after COVID have been lots and lots of brand new people, right. And you know, that when you're brand new, and you don't have exposure to a community, when you don't know what it's like to be around, what do you have, you have, you know, porn, you have shiny books that are better, as you said a minute ago, stage, people in stage costumes, that kind of thing. And what I like to think that we're doing with this whole line of production is making, again, accessible to people what, what the connection is, between the people, right, the reason why we do this is to make connections and to deepen our connections. And I think that's what we capture, right? Like is, anybody can put on leather, anybody can pick up a toy, anybody can stand behind somebody. And you know, you can do all of those mechanics, but you can't manufacture his connection.

Abigail Div
The human component is something that can never be forced or faked. And that stayed or staged, as it will never read the same way visually, as if you're authentically experiencing a moment, unless you're a really good actor. But I think for most people, it comes out the purest in the most authentic because it's real. I think what we've done in our events, is to provide people that experience in real time, and now with the media, what we're having, I feel like we're trying to create a wider reach so that people who haven't stepped through the door yet have an opportunity to experience connection for media. Well, that's the perfect lead up to the experiences and the learnings and the interactions that make up this eight part series that you're now producing, or have produced in our in post production and streaming to a larger community. This explores kinks of an individual per episode, and is collected into this compilation of live sessions mixed with a documentary element to it. How did you come up with the idea of making a series out of these experiences?

Joshua
Oh, man, I forget exactly how it came to pass. Oh. So before COVID, I was speaking with a gentleman about some media ideas that he had. And you had stuff coming up on on, like Netflix or Amazon, stuff like that. But this was all scripted story. And I remember real sex HBO and I was like, wow, that actually had a big impact on a lot of people and it's time. And one of my biggest things about BDSM is if people were to understand what it is and what it isn't, it will be so much. It will be received so much greater and normalized. So much easier. If people can see and understand what's happening beyond what pornography we've, we actually captured ourselves on video doing a test session that we uploaded online, I can send you the link it's on, it's on a porn website. But the idea wasn't to capture points, the idea was to capture the beauty of what a connection looks like. So after we recorded that one, I was like, wow, we shouldn't be telling stories. Right. So we contacted one of our other brothers and asked him if he would be willing to, and he's a 60 plus year old gay male, from New York, and he has an extraordinary, extraordinarily common story, fundamentally foundation that if people were to hear him, they could see while I understand, and they can establish some sort of empathy or connection with the person that we're watching. That's what that's what prompted the documentary, I wanted to make it accessible to more people on a greater scale.

Abigail Div
So in terms of the episodes, and the we had mentioned, just now about queuing, the first participant, what is included in every episode?

Joshua
So that was our first episode that we were still in post production trying to wrap it up. We have seven more stories that we want to tell the vetting to find the stories is part of the process. What we want to do is we want to highlight a person or a couple, we want to tell their stories. And we want to be described in ways that affects them person, how has this lifestyle helped you grow? Right? And that'll be the commonality in all of medicine? What do we do for fun, but it's how has it changed your life?

Cat Orme
which is the way we both I do a small amount of professional domination as well. And both of us approach clients or people we work with in that same way, it's like this is not about, you know, hire me to hit you this is about engage with me so that I can help you grow. Right, this is the whole approach that we have to BDSM in our engagement with ourselves each other everything in our circle. And so this, the documentary series is a natural extension of that. And it's a way of showing people in a very meaningful and visceral way, what that looks like not again, not the actual activity, but what does the connection look like? So the the interview process is about, who is this person that we're about to watch the unseen? Not? What are their kings? Now what, but who are these human being? Where did they come from? How do they think, how do they feel? What did they do for a living? How did they get to where they are right now? And then come up on so and I have this convert? I've had this conversation 100,000 times already? How did you start thinking about this, When was the first time you did it? When was the first time you stepped out? A lot of times the people in front of me, it's their very first time at an event, how long you've been thinking about this two weeks, two months, two years, two decades, before people actually step out. And these are the people that we're interviewing. And then after the audience has an opportunity to connect with that person as a human being, then we step into the scene that they're going to do. And we watch them the same as we just talked about the photography and everything else we watched them like, like they're having this interaction with no mind to the idea that anybody's watching, but just being in their experience. And then people can see what that looks like. And then we come away and talk about what that experience was like for the same person that we were introduced to on the front side, right? So it's an entire experience, beginning, middle and end, that give people who are watching an opportunity to access what is kink and BDSM. In not the ways that you normally think to see it, you know, like the like the fancy dominatrix or the 50 shades of grey or, you know, the the stereotypical ways that people come to think about it. Yeah, it

Abigail Div
Sounds like you're giving access to the full narrative. And the full context is paramount. Speaking of which, there is a whole personal story, which you were mentioning is a way of humanizing the the experience that people are having and bringing sort of back around home and not just making it into all about the session and what happens in a session. Why is it so important that you have personal stories in the series,

Joshua
Empowerment. Confidence. Making these desires common language will help remove stigma and shame from people's sexual identity. Right, the things that they desire, if they can have a platform to discuss these things more openly without judgment. I'm firm believer. Violence would go down. Sexual Assault would drop, shame and suicide would drop to where we can have a little more freedom and expression of self. If we can have that we can have better communication. If we can have better communication, we can have better comprehension. Right? And it'll just help create a society that's more accepting of self. Right? I just want someone to see this video and saying, Wow, I'm not broken, right? If I can, if we can do that, is worse, right? Now we can do that on a large scale, then we can take our mission and pay it forward.

Cat Orme
I think that the context is really important. Because a lot of times what what people do to stigmatize themselves, is feel like people who do that, as if those people don't have a context, right. So I know me, I know what I'm afraid of, I know what I do for a living, that I knew the things I'm ashamed of. I know all that. And therefore, those people don't have any of that, therefore, I'm not like them. When you see someone and you understand that they have jobs, and they have insecurities, and they have places that they come from, etc, then, then you have to say to yourself, Well, I am kind of like them, and they're having that experience. So maybe I can to accessibility.

Abigail Div
And definitely want to where you can associate more readily with the common features that you have, as opposed to what differentiates you from the people that you are filming and, and narrating. To, which is an excellent example, I think of the people before kink mantra that you have underlying most of the work. Is that a large component also of this documentary series?

Cat Orme
That people, Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, it has to be I mean, because that is what we're doing. It's called people who for kink. That's the whole point of it, there's plenty, there's plenty of places you can go out there to just see kink on film. Right, like filming kink is not at all what we're interested in doing. For its sake, for its own sake, it's right. It's, it's using this as a medium for connection. Right. And for no other reason. It's who we are. It's where we come from. It's how we've connected as human beings. And so we're just going out and finding all of the other people who are just like us,

Joshua
And helping validate and affirm their thoughts and feelings of self,

Cat Orme
And then reach those people who haven't had that opportunity to do it yet.

Abigail Div
Right now, in terms of, of reach, you have one film that is right now in post production and available. Where are we in terms of the series? Where can we expect to find it?

Joshua
So what we're hoping to do is one of our next steps in evolution is is a media production company where we can not only tell our stories, but help tell the stories of the the capital that's needed to get this off the ground on the scale that we want it to be up is taking some time, so that we can we can, we can bring it together, we're working on a GoFundMe page with my slave who is a writer to help put this vision into words so that we can crowdsource for the ability to get this mass produced and mass distributed, right? I personally would love to have it on Amazon or Netflix. Because tomorrow, the content, the content is assessable. And it's not. When people see it, I have not taken away any negative feedback from it, because of how impactful it is for the person who watched my dream My one of our next steps is to get this mass distribution, so that we can get this out there. Now. The hard part is the first episode is really intense. So it can't be episode one. It has to come in further down the series. But we are getting the trail out there, we are going to be doing some screenings in local venues. And at an all male retreat that we're hosting, so that we can show the people at this kink Odyssey who a lot are new, that you're not the only one, but to being able to have viewing parties and viewings of it. So that we can start getting a gauge on how people are going to respond. And we can build out the rest of the series, depending on the responses that we get.

Cat Orme
And depending on how all the technical aspects of it, you know that we have space that we shoot and now we hope to have more space shortly. So where are we going to shoot it which stories in what order all of that's being worked on, as we speak

Abigail Div
The fine tuning and the logistics are most of the administrative work to getting anything off the ground and it sounds like this is a pilot then to see based on audience response where you'll evolve either the format or the series and how you're going to tell each individual story.

Cat Orme
The idea for the GoFundMe is to So that we can have a media production space dedicated to all formats of media production to include a podcast direction that we're going as well. We want to incorporate our King Collective People Before Kink LMP Productions and our own spiritual and conscious expanding journeys under one roof where we can talk about this on a very grand scale out what would be, yeah.

Cat Orme
We're out to change the world.

Abigail Div
We'll just boil it down to those two things. Well, we look forward to seeing you both what LNB productions, Kink Collective, People Before Kink, as well as all of your upcoming events have yet to offer. So thank you, Joshua, and Kat for Joining me to talk about all of those things and more and your new media production and projects. You have your plates full for 2021.

Joshua
Yeah, yeah, I'm so happy that you invited us on here. It's been it's been a long time coming. You know, we've it's life as have has put up roadblocks so we're greatly appreciative to be here. And to have joined it.

Cat Orme
Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Abigail Div
It was my absolute pleasure. And if you like what you hear, join me again next time for another feature on Le Sex Lab.