A Boutique Retreat to SPNKD

By: Abby DivDate: March 29, 2021

In Le Sex Lab's podcast we are talking about creating space to explore your inner kinks. In the lab to talk about their secret city loft, special design features, and new product line are Founders of SPNKD, Paul and Miriam.

Abigail Div
Hello, everyone. We're going to be talking today about designing space to explore your inner kinks. I'm your host, Abigail Div, Founder of Le Sex Lab, an experimental media lab exploring sexuality and creator of this podcast featuring media creators and innovators. Today's interview will explore the following: How did SPNKD come into its luxurious loft space in Antwerp? How was it designed with a focus on kink? Light and airy, but why, and with whom in mind? And finally, how do studio owners turned into product designers? With me to talk about all their creations and their light filled playroom for you and your partner to explore our Paul and Miriam Founders of SPNKD. Welcome Paul and Miriam.

Paul
Alright.

Miriam
Hello, thank you for having us.

Abigail Div
Oh, well, certainly, and welcome to Le Sex Lab's podcast. The list of amenities at your secret city loft is almost without saying impressive enough. And that's not even looking at the images of the space itself. Let's check though, about how you got involved in creating this super luxurious experience. What made you want to design a space for kinky?

Paul
Well, we were thinking at a certain point that we were becoming a couple and sexuality played, of course, a role like with everybody. And we were thinking, what happens if you want to be sensual and sexual and sexual together, but in the longer on a longer time span, let's say for four hours or half a day or something like that, and you want to explore your sexuality and you want to, to be creative in what you are doing or experiencing, then, where should you go? Or what should you do? And, and of course, in the beginning, everybody's putting candles on the dinner table. And that's very romantic. But we felt that our house wasn't always the right place to to create an inspirational mood, let's say. So we started to look outside, like other places, where could we go? What could we do? We're record we explore what we are looking for. And and then we couldn't find anything. Anything upon to our standards? I mean, of course you can you can rent a private sauna, or you can find a dungeon, but it was always something that wasn't really. Yeah. How do I describe it? Not really up to our standards, or up to our style, and we always felt a little bit like, yeah, strange when we going to the places that existed. So there was a need for us to find a place where we could go be ourselves, be creative, be free, explore in a sexual way, and we just couldn't find it.

Abigail Div
Yeah, speaking to that. What role did you play then in actually designing and building the space?

Paul
Well, so then, when we couldn't find it, I was thinking at a certain point, yeah, okay, maybe we shouldn't build a place for ourselves. a certain point, we were renting the the suites in hotels, because there was a little bit more plays and regular bedroom in a hotel. There was quite expensive. So I was thinking, Okay, why why aren't we building something ourselves? And by accident, I had a friend who was selling an old part of a warehouse in an old brewery. And then we said, okay, maybe we should start thinking about what it could be what we are looking for, we cannot find and that's actually how it basically started. So we came up with an idea of redoing that, that space. And rethinking the whole concept of what could sexuality be in a more? Yeah, creative, open way without being too to say it like that?

Abigail Div
Sure. I think we all have that image of the the cheap motel by the hour rental, you know, that's like in and out. getting the job done.

Miriam
Yeah. Of course, we all know that. And certainly, we have been there. Just exploring experiencing that. Yeah. Then again, that was not the thing that we were looking for. And yeah, at that point, we were asking why doesn't exist. Why is there like a luxurious, beautiful space where where we can explore and yeah, have your kink? And yeah, I think for a lot of people, it has a place and a lot of people like being in a in a more cheap motel because it's part of the experience, and that's fine. I mean, there needs to be that places. Well, I'm not saying that it's not good or it doesn't have any value. But for us, it was not what we were looking for. And, and then the other thing that Miriam was saying, Yeah, we just couldn't find so that that's basically how it all started. And that's out of all of us was in that concept.

Abigail Div
And I think, as you were saying, Paul, that there is certainly a place for both explorations, if you will, both environments to exist, they just fit different needs, and different need states, if you will, because that cheap, kinky, hotel, motel on the side of the highway, can be fun, and adventurous. But it might not be the thing that you feel comfortable with expanding your sexual explorations. It's one of these adventure trips, if you will to, to exploring other aspects of your sexuality. So in terms of designing the space itself, how hands son were you? Were you designing every piece? Or were you were you doing a lot of this sort of outsource to friends and family style of, you know, finding people who had the right skill sets to design?

Paul
So on the design you were pretty hands on in the sense that yeah, we first the the guy that bought the place on was an architect. So the first drawings were made with him. So the very structural things that we changed. But then we work together with, with a couple of interior, designer furniture, first slash furniture designers, who I knew already beforehand, and they make a lot of custom furniture, basically. And then we were sitting together designing, reiterating saying like, okay, we would like to have whatever this type of bed and it should be super nice and cozy, but it needs to have all these hidden features where you can tie somebody up, or when you have a special group where you can add something to it. So so that's how it actually evolves. But then, of course, the building of the furniture and installation, that's not something read it, that's actually something they they did. But on the design process, it was pretty much us coming with ideas, they having the technical skills, and then making iterations and seeing where it fits and what we liked, and what they liked, and how much to actually. So it was not something that we didn't buy any furniture, like, by existing, let's say shops, it's everything is actually custom made. And that we have some little things but yeah, for example, we have this kind of in the floor, we have this hooks that are like, in the floor, so you can open them like in, in a gymnastic sports. Yeah, place where they they use those kinds of things, for example, to to hook up the, the, the tools from or the furniture for sports, like former Olympics and stuff like that. So they have the special groups for the floors. And we use those hoops, for example. And then you can tie up somebody to express Yeah, we both are very creative thinkers. And that's why we felt very comfortable just designing and thinking out products ourselves. And yeah, the whole process of designing and it took some time, but I think it needed to have that time so we could figure out what we really wanted. And what should be in that space.

Abigail Div
Well, speaking of what you really wanted, what were some of the basic features that you needed to have in it?

Miriam
Well, I think not so much, maybe the basic feature we thought about, but starting from the things we really just didn't want to see in our space. The things you already have and can find in the the motels and the dark dungeons. Those were the things we we just wanted to avoid, like the red velvet, the black leather things we wanted to be more like a boutique hotel, but with a pretty much kinky side. So yeah, starting from that point, we just created and thought of all the all the tools and all the furniture that needs to be in the space. Yeah, it also started a bit. If you look at the space and you start designing space, and you really think about this is a space about sexual exploration. So what should it have? So then we said okay, you know what, if we go there, if somebody will be there, or if you go there, you want to have this nice bathroom where you can prepare yourself right? Because you want to do your makeup as a woman or as a man, whatever. So you want to prepare yourself okay? So that's the part that we need to have and then Okay, we want to have this place where? Okay, where we can Hang Hang somebody, for example. And but then also, we want to have a place where you can chill out. Because after your experience that you have and all the things that you explore that it's super, sometimes heavy, sometimes emotional, you just want to sit down in a nice, comfortable place where you can drink good wine or something. And that was also something we were missing in a lot of places. Because if you go to that dark dungeon, and you're done, then you still in a dark, cold dungeon. And that's not a very comfortable place to chill out for another half hour, if you're done with your game, let's say or read your scene. And then that's, for example, something we really fall about. So yeah, one hand you have the whole play area. And on the other hand, you have the place the sofa, you just said and have a talk and talk about the experiences you just had. And maybe you're with some friends, maybe you're just with the two of you, and just have a little chat and sit and drink a coffee or wine, things like that.

Abigail Div
So there's, there's a balance of seams between the actual space in its use. And also then the posts, you know, as people say, the post care or the aftercare and the release, you know, that you need to have after you have the tension build, so that you can have that, that ying and yang and that oscillation between the two things. So that you know, it's the full experience, not just half or a part of the experience of exploring yourself and your partner, but also being able to unwind afterwards to releasing all of the built up tension that you've created, of course, in the process of doing it, and then being able to take care of yourself as well, in a in a very enjoyable manner. Of course, the salient point, I think of all of this is, is that all for enjoyment,

Miriam
Exactly. And that after care you're talking about, it's so important to just not, you should not skip that. It is very important. So that's why we really had to add that to the space.

Abigail Div
Great. Well, let's talk more about design specifics of the space. Take us back to the build.vThe space was converted as it is from a brewery in downtown Antwerp. The space looks like it has a lot of history that gives it a very unique character Not to mention the one that you've also imbued onto it. Where did you start in terms of converting the space?

Miriam
So when we bought the space, it was really nothing more than a warehouse parts. Because actually, it was indeed a brewery, the second largest of Antwerp at a time, but then in World War One, the Germans close the doubt and use it to put their ammunition. And then after that, there was never a brewery again. And it's it was mostly a warehouse for Yeah, for different kinds of stuff. And so when we bought it, it was empty. But the really good thing was it is a very old building. So it has really thick walls. So it's like, you have the perfect sound insulation, let's say that was a good feature that we had. And then for the rest, it was basically nothing. So we had to start from scratch. And so that means that we started with Yeah, adding some lights in the in the back, because we could open the one of the walls on the big window. It's not really a window that you can look through, because of course of the privacy. But it gave us the space where we could make a little outdoor area for smokers or in the summer if you want to sit outdoor. So there was really construction work that we had to do at the start,

Abigail Div
You didn't have to do a lot of gutting the space itself, it was already sort of pre-gutted.

Miriam
Yeah, but there was nothing I mean, we started really with putting a new floor, the floor heating, the whole heating system had to be done, the electricity needed to be updated. everything needed to be start from scratch, but we didn't have to do anything else. That was the good thing. But so we had to build everything. Also, for example, like the walls like you but you can see in the pictures they have this really old nice looking look but it wasn't like that it was they painted all kinds of whites this kind of layer over it, which was pretty ugly, basically. So we have restored the all the ceiling and the walls in their original states. So that gives this nice industrial look actually.

Abigail Div
Yeah, the whole exposed brick aesthetic was very popular, especially today, you know, converted industrial spaces. So in terms of keeping some of the characteristics of the space itself. Paul, you mentioned that there's still the exposed brick that's apparent in the space. So when you walk through it, are there any other features that you tried to keep in it, incorporate into your use of the space?

Miriam
Yeah, like the ceilings, for example, we have really beautiful this like arched, brick ceilings. So that's also something we restored, because it also gives a really nice atmosphere. And we were also pretty lucky that the space is quite high. I think we are. Yeah, it's more than four meters. I don't know how much that will be in your...

Abigail Div
Yeah, it's about 12 feet.

Paul
Yeah

Abigail Div
Yes, it's pretty high.

Miriam
Yeah, that's an advantage because it gives this kind of air in the space, let's say you have this kind of, you come in, and it's like, you feel the height of the of the of the room. And that's, and that's, that works really, really well. And then yeah, and another thing that we kept is that actually, a funny thing is that's maybe also nice to mention is that basically, in that building, we are more in the back of the building visits, we are not the only ones in the brewery, there was also other companies and so and so in there, so we are more in the back. And when you want to enter our place, you first have to go to the kind of garage, a parking garage. So people they can drive in. So there's the gate is open, then you drive in, and it's kind of garage and then you have this kind of. And that's something from the old building, there was an old metal gate, let's say and that's actually the entrance of our of our playroom. And that's, that's people, what we actually do is we keep the address secrets for them until they book the space. And then they then we say, Okay, this is your address. And then when you're there, you have to send the text and then we'll open the gate, and then they come in and then the gate will open. And they're just still in a in a garage. And it's kind of very, and then they enter to that old metal gate, let's say and then they enter this room, which is super beautiful and super design II. And it's like just that contrast of the whole thing that you that it was first like okay, well, I'm growing. And then you find this hidden gem that's like super beautiful. And a lot of people visiting our place are really, really enthusiastic about that. Yeah they're like , it's super private, and it's so nice that we found this and it's unique and we know it and others don't know it. And that's that's part of the experience, actually.

Abigail Div
Yeah, it seems like also the the experience is part of the the journey, if you will, of actually experiencing the space itself.

Paul
Yeah

Abigail Div
But sort of like, you know, the boutique hotel I think you had mentioned or very similar to a luxurious spa experience where it's not only about the service that you're providing, but also the experience to and from the service.

Miriam
Absolutely. Yeah.

Abigail Div
Well, designing the space to be cohesive, without any precedents must have been its own inspirational challenge. Where did you find design inspiration for the space?

Miriam
Well, obviously, we have a very large Pinterest board with just looking finding inspiration, and things we really liked, or things we could add to products just to have that extra and luxurious feel and advocating in the room. So we started from there, actually.

Abigail Div
And how would you exactly describe the aesthetic you are going for when you're doing these Pinterest boards?

Miriam
But for me, it was a lot of about yeah, what I had to be like, like industrial look and feel like the industrial but more but you would find indeed in this kind of New York style lofts with LA for us. It's New York's, New York-style of maybe for New York status, it's always different. But that's how we see it anyway. And on one hand, and that's something you see a lot in, in fashion shops, for example, where they buy, why they sell fashion clothing, or what do you see in restaurants, or what do you see in boutique hotels. So that was one thing. And on the other hand, we also like the things that are cleverly designed or so the way that the little details or the the little things that make something that you say, that's well thought about those kinds of things. And, for example, we have this old wall where we have these tiles and some of the tiles are like in in messing in brass, sorry, and those ones there have a ring to it so that you can tie up somebody to but it's just like a regular shower where you normally have your tiles and some of the tiles they have something extra and it's like nicely designed for example, and all those tiles with rings they have exactly the same size as the other tiles so fits in and blends perfectly. And that's something we like, all those little details that are very clever and that also gives this kind of luxury feeling or so.

Abigail Div
And speaking of which, how are you translating your vision into the imagery? And I'm thinking specifically, in regards to the photography that you take of the space, which is your own, which oscillates between this light and airy exposed warehouse space to a dark contemporary with accents of tan leather and green velvet lining, brass finishes, as you were saying, as has a very boutique hotel experience sort of aesthetic.

Paul
Yeah, well, there's a lot of things to tell about that, of course, one of the things that, that we do in that way is that we want to visualize different aspects of what we will, what we stand for. And as of course, on one hand, the room and the luxury of the room. But on the other hand, we also want to inspire people to explore their sexuality, or BDSM levels. And we will have the experience that for example, if we if we show couples that that works pretty well, and that resonates well with the audience, for example, we also try and it's not always easy to to make a good mix between what kind of models we are showing, we know that we have a lot of beautiful, beautiful women, for example, on our Instagram, we try to diversify a bit. But to be very honest, one of the reasons that we have a lot of women out there is because there's a lot of female models that are in a certain scene that that want to use the place to the model, and you have just less men in our scene. So that's something we really have to organize ourselves. But in general, in the imagery, what we want to do is to do to make that contrast between on one hand a little bit, sometimes awkward or strange. And on the other hand, the luxury to bring actually the message and it's be okay to be yourself. And we often Yeah, sometimes you have man in high heels. And that's perfectly okay. I mean, there is no judgments at that place. It can be free, you can be yourself, and you can feel normal about it. And I think we also want to bring it in our visual style, but not in a shocking way that we want to show the very extreme things, but we want to show it more in a in a way. That's like I said, it's inspiring. And I it's normal to, to think outside of the box, sometimes. I know Miriam, if you want to add something to that?

Miriam
Well, it is a very industrial look that we still want to have a more warm feel also with the pictures. And we really like to be very storytelling, maybe just give a little hints or, or something that you could experience in our place. And of course, with the use of all the tools and all the furniture of things that are inside. And yeah, and we try to be very diverse in that. But very much this storytelling is something that we really like to add in our pictures.

Abigail Div
Yeah, it sounds like it's a mix between normalizing an experiences that can be somewhat taboo in nature, in an environment that feels very luxurious and very comfortable. So as to kind of take it outside of the the context of what people perceive as being BDSM, or kink and put it into an environment that they're much more attuned to.

Miriam
Yeah, that's really well, yeah.

Abigail Div
Wonderful, and talking about the experience as that plays an equal part in the design and the amenities, connoisseurs of BDSM may be looking for features that are very different from those who are just starting to dabble with the idea or just starting to explore the possibilities within the sphere. Who is the target for the space?

Miriam
Well, we have we have different audiences, let's say I think the main target we are focusing on is mostly people above 30 people that are in relationship a bit longer and try to to explore their sexuality. They got a little bit stuck somewhere and there's a lack of We want to we want to connect to each other, we want to explore, we want to find the vibes back that they've lost during the during the years, I think. So most of those people are couples, I say, and those couples are not typically the hardcore BDSM scene people that go every week to a party, but mostly people that take babysitter for the kids, and they want to join a place to, to be together because it's their wedding anniversary, or it's a birthday or just because they like each other. And that's actually one of the main audiences, the main audience to say. Nevertheless, of course, we also have people that are more experienced, we also have people that come sometimes to the professional to our place, which is something we are not encouraging. But we are also not judging. So we will never offer professional services, let's say to people, if you rent the place, but if somebody comes, we are not going to ask Who is this person and something like that. So that's something up to the clients to decide whether they like it or not. So that's basically the the main audience then next to that we also have a lot of photographers and videographers, we had recently a series of Netflix that was reported at our place. So it's also used actually us. Yeah, video photos studio, a lot.

Miriam
Yeah, but don't forget, the first target for the space was more or less ourselves. So we started, yeah, just to have a space for ourselves. And of course, it turned out to be such a special and great place that we really enjoy sharing, sharing with other people. So that's how we started renting out the space.

Abigail Div
So in terms of reserving a slot, it requires a four hour commitment. And you've recently updated your website to accommodate these requirements. For many studios, this is much longer than the one to two hour minimum, or a hotel, for instance, that requires a full day booking. So you're somewhere between that you lie a half day though.

Paul
But it's not necessarily have that you can also book a night, of course, or multiple nights, if you want to, under actually people doing that. I recently had, for example, another question for a whole week. And in the summer, we also often have periods, longer periods, let's say that people stay, although that's not the the common thing. It's happens once in a while, but not always. But the thing is that the minimum stays in need for hours. And it comes a bit from what we were telling in the beginning. Like if you're Imagine that you are together with your partner, and you want to really commit yourself to have this kind of sexual experience, where we think you need to take sufficient time. And it also open opens the mind of people. And if you tell somebody like okay, you have to be together in a sexual erotic manner for at least four hours, then people start to think differently about about what they're doing. And if you if you if you give the opportunity to people to say, okay, it's just one hour, then you know, it will it won't be very inspiring, it will be probably what they know already. So it's also to, to open up the people's minds to be creative, and to be more explorative in what they are doing. And that can be of course, partially as BDSM they can use. Yeah, I often say it's like BDSM, you can use it as a tool box, and you can use whatever you want to create your journey. But, I think if you have a longer time span that you can spend together, people are more triggered to really think about it as a journey, instead of this is a sexual act. So that's actually I think the main reason also to make sure that people take the time to do the aftercare to stay and not to rush into it and go out. That's basically the main reason why we set it at least four hours that we that we want to rent out space.

Miriam
And our space, it has so many features that you really have to discover and take your time to discover. Only with four hours, you can do everything or experience everything that we have in the space. So I'm always sending people just really take your time and be together and take your time together. It's so important. Don't rush into things. And yeah, just enjoy the whole experience.

Abigail Div
It certainly sounds like an I can envision that you're setting the context based on a four hour minimum booking. That changes the outlook and the perspective that you have when you coming into the space and how you're going to use it when you don't feel as rushed, of course, and trying to get the most for your money, if you will, so as to use all the amenities in a very confined time. Can you imagine that, you know, like it's like the boot camp for BDSM of trying to hit all different areas in your space. So what comes standard with a booking?

Paul
Well, yeah, what we try to do in our place, it's not it's not only designing a beautiful space and we already mentioned it is also about experience and we are really good at it and Miriam certainly is good at it in finding really the best products that are fitting with our space. That means we have of course a good minibar that's included in the price we have the nice local gin that we have. We have even it's like one dominant gin and one submit of gin for example. So submissive gin so we play really with that we have a local wine, we have anti-allergic linen sheets that are super comfortable to on the bed. So we really try to to make it a warm welcoming, feeling like you feel really like you're in a nearly pampered way like you really super luxuries that is flowers in the in the in the room for example is also is also some or plants we have a lot of plants in there. So that they're all gifts, this kind of warm feeling like say in contrast with this maybe kinky thoughts that you might have. It gives a really yeah, it gives comfort to people I think. Right Miriam smell is really something...

Miriam
Oh yeah, yeah, I really wanted to add, like a really good smell when you step in is like this feel so good. It smells, everything smells so good. And of course we provide a space that I really wanted to do just something extra for the people who are visiting us and yeah, just you really want to treat your customers so that's why we don't charge for the minibar. Everything is for free. So you have some fresh fruits when you come in some nice greens and everything. Of course you also get like a handwritten little notes when you come in. You have condoms, some lube. Yeah, just a little bit extra as we like to add

Abigail Div
And ensures in terms of making sure that they have every one thing that they need to practice and explore. What do you make sure that is readily available? Like in terms of the accessories, do you make sure that there's you know, the standard, whips, floggers restraints bars on hand? Or is that more tucked away and you discover and or pick out as you choose?

Paul
Well know the roots of the floggers, and the bars are pretty open and visible or visible, visible. And they but it's all beautiful design objects, of course. But we don't offer an overload of things. I mean, you have actually Yeah, a basic set. Let's say it's nice ropes, really handmade, super top quality, no ropes, we have some floggers and whips, we have of course the cuffs and verse really a limited set, because we don't want to over do things that say if you have this kind of wall with like 10,000 whips, then yeah, you probably won't know what to choose from

Miriam
We really made a very careful selection of things we think could really be the basics to to have a really good play setup.

Paul
And also things that we don't offer for examples, everything that we cannot clean properly. So everything that's used after every visit, everything is disinfected, of course and very thoroughly cleaned. And so for example things like dildos, vibrators, those kinds of things, butt plugs, that's something we don't offer. Because it's yeah, that's some that's personal and you have to bring it by yourself, those kinds of things.

Abigail Div
And what pieces would you say are the more advanced and maybe not readily on display? I think you had mentioned in a previous conversation that sex swings are instance can be a bit intimidating for anyone who is not as experienced or deeply experienced in the kink and BDSM community, maybe a little bit an intimidation factor. But are there pieces that you have, that you let your clientele use as, as they needed or request to have it?

Paul
Yeah, well, so first of all, the more experienced people, they mostly bring their own stuff. For example, if you have bull whip, we don't offer bull whip because it's too dangerous, you can easily hurt somebody's eye or you can, something like that, if you don't know what you're doing. So we're not offering that because it's too dangerous. But people that are used to it, they bring it by themselves, of course. So that's one thing. But then, of course, there's all these little hidden hooks and places that you can use to tie somebody up to put some to restrain somebody, those kinds of things are there, of course, and that's something that you have to have a bit of experience in manage. Just, for example, also a bamboo that you can use, if you're more experienced in bondage to do some Spanish suspension, bondage. So that's, that's for sure it's there. But the real toys, let's say itself, that's something that more experienced people than to bring themselves. Yeah, and then about the sex swing, that's something that we are indeed, considering. I mean, for us, if you, if you hang a sex swing in a room, it's it's very much reflected to the more traditional dungeon, let's say. And I think for people that start that are like, new in the scene, and they want to be in a comfortable zone, which will kinky actually, they can explore, and they can discover more and more and more as they go along. I mean, a sex swing is very present in a room. So that's something that we could add to do a bed, for example, that you could add the sex week, but it's certainly something that we wouldn't do for newbies to come in the room. So that's something that we could in the future that we probably will offer that you can add, when you do your booking. Okay, I want to add a sec swing, and then we will make sure that this section will be there. more in depth?

Abigail Div
Yes, definitely sounds more like a customization. As opposed to something that comes, you know, standard package.

Paul
Yeah.

Abigail Div
Well, since you forayed, into product design in tandem to running the loft space. And being owners of a studio, you come into contact with not only how you envisioned the experience to be, but also how it actually translates and how other people use the space. And not always are the two the same or mutually exclusive. So similarly, with so many toys to play with in your space, and how other people's you are using the accessories must play into, again, your discovery of how to operate. Have you made any discoveries in running the space on how people are using it?

Miriam
Yeah, well, we started, of course, with things we thought we wanted to see in the space. And we wanted to add, but as you were saying other people experiencing SPNKD wanted to see different kinds of things. But also, after a booking some people visited us, I always asked for some feedback. So that's why we are definitely interested in what the people expect of being there expands and what they wanted to see or just ask if anything was missing, or if they have any interesting tips for us or things like that. So that's how we discovered what the extras could be or what we could add. Yeah, things like that.

Paul
Yeah. So for example, one of the things that I've discovered with people is that if you have the journey of SPNKD, it's not only even the four hours at SPNKD that matters is often a whole day or even, it's a build up to what's going to happen. So sometimes people want to start actually the whole experience by preparing themselves, putting on beautiful clothes, going to a nice restaurant, and then coming to our space. So it's not necessarily starting when you enter the door, it might be starting before or it can keep on going afterwards. I mean, SPNKD is a part of it. And and so that made the means for example, that if you have accessories that you can use, for example, when you go to a restaurant that you can use is a rare without that without judgments of other people looking at you like hmm, is she wearing a collar? Or is she wearing handcuffs or something like that, if you could didn't make something that has meaning, but more of a subtle way that you can play along during that you before you come to spine or, you know, afterwards or during the week. And that's something that that has some potential I think.